DX7 - Dexed 25th Anniversary_KUJASHI Soundbanks

[Sounddigger]

[color=yellow]Does everbody knows, what he have done in november, 1991?
For me, it was the date of my entry in soundprogramming - in a more spontaneous action.

After my CEI Prestige Organ and a Crumar Multiman S (Orchestrator), the Yamaha DX7 was my first "right"
synthesizer.

Hey Kujaschi, that's a great story For me too it was the TX802 that got to be my first "right" synth. That was back in 1987 when I used it on TV soundtracks I was working on at that time. I actually tried to learn programming it, but that was just too time-consuming with all that was going on, so I stuck to collecting presets.

I still have that same TX802 sitting right here in a rack.  8)

In the next three years, I´ve patched more than 1.500 sounds (most started with the "sound-init" patch)

...  Before I´ve sold the DX with a broken heart, I had to save all the sounds in sysex. But I´ve made them in 1991-1993
and without the lack of a PC. In the User-bank of the DX7 only 32 patches could be saved. So I have written
them down per hand in those data-sheets (copied from the manual) or in/on colleq-blocks. All of the ~1500 sounds.
Who knows, how many parameters are part of a sound of the DX7, knows how much work this must have been.
Yeah, memory was a respectful word at those times - there was no Cubase at all - and everybody must have the
ability to "play" with his hands - not with the mouse.

Though, in 1999 - now with PC, I had to do the same - but vice-versa. All those parameters read from the sheets
and step-by-step type into the DX7 (the Data-Entry-slider was the only way for change the parameters) - sound by sound.
This procedure takes about 3 weeks (every day after work til late evening and the whole weekends, after breakfast
til midnight).
So, the best sounds are saved until today in 36 sysex-folders and I keep them like a treasure.

That sounds like quite an ordeal! But I don't understand why you thought you had to do it in that terribly laborious and painstaking way.

I remember using an editor for my TX802 back in (around) 1988 on the Atari ST1040, that was suitable for the whole DX line, including DX7, DX7II, TX816, etc... I started working with a version of Cubase in 1986, although upon checking my facts with the data online, it must have been called Pro 24 at that time (which I don't really remember calling it, but that must 've been it - well, it's been a while...). I was using it with a SMP 24 SMTP unit (which makes sense, name-wise).

Pro 24 / Cubit / Cubase on Atari ST were all totally capable of receiving/sending system exclusive, and the editor I had (can't remember what it was called) worked terrifically. Managing my library was really easy, and it was possible to do special edits for special DX types like the TX802 and the TX816 (which I occasionally used), and even for creating tunings.

Early 1994 I switched to Mac, and got SoundDiver. This was (and still is) a great editor (free now).

I've since left the Mac to the fashionistas, and moved unto PC. :kiff

Unfortunately, at some stage I lost most of my DX library, which included a fair number of banks I purchased. Happily, I still had a selection of carefully picked presets in my TX802 available, which I now can load in compatible VSTs like Dexed and FM8. I'll see if I can upload them somewhere on this forum (can anyone suggest a topic for it? Shall I post it in this one, or should I start a new one?).

And I have recognised, that against all opinions of everybody else, the free "DEXED", can´t reproduce the sounds
of the DX7 perfectly. Eventually this could be with the factory sounds. But many of "my" patches sounds not the same.
But the NI FM7, which I´ve bought as the successor of the DX7 in software, can reproduce all these sounds
perfectly 1:1!!

Since about a year I got FM8 available, getting the NI Komplete bundle, but I haven't got around to using it much yet, mainly because I had been working on getting a good selection of sounds for Dexed. So this is a good opportunity to compare both of them with my TX802.

My experience is that most DX types sound slightly different from each other. Some people would prefer a sound on DX7 over the same sound on a TX802. And multiplying a sound with the 8 modules of a TX816 (with appropriate detune and spread) can't compare with anything else, but to my taste that would be too fat for some sounds, in that case I'd prefer the TX802.

Some differences can come from output gain variables.

Having said that, most people wouldn't hear the difference between a DX7 and a single module of the other types.

As I wrote earlier on this board, I think the Dexed does a fantastic job emulating the DX7 types. The updates offer the possibility to use 3 different "engine resolution" (among the buttons in the lower left corner, click "parm"). The "OPL series" flavor is magic, and can make a big difference, especially on bright sounds that would otherwise sound harsh.

Strangely, different than what you've experienced, I find that in a "plug & play" situation, in general Dexed gives a more faithful emulation than FM8.

To get FM8 to sound (mostly) the same as both TX802 and Dexed, I found that I had  to increase its velocity (in the DAW) by around 15% (using Studio One). I found this critical for Fender Rhodes type sounds (such as the famous "Fulltines"). Once this is done, FM8 can sound a bit rounder than Dexed, but it's a very close call, sometimes it's the other way around (especially when using "OPL" on Dexed). For most sounds, with these tweaks, the three become indistinguishable.

Still, some sounds will somehow not be 100% right compared to the original on TX802. Sometimes EQ can help out, sometimes it's just not fixable. For what I've been testing, Dexed fits more often than FM8 (which in some cases even badly imports tuning, release, or other parameters).

So, have much fun with these sounds. In the sounddemo I have shown - with the example of the sound "Atmosphere 5",
the difference between "Dexed" and the original "DX7/FM7".

I find that when you load "Atmosph5" in Dexed, when you set the "engine resolution" to "Mark I", and when you lower the velocity by about -15% (in the DAW), it behaves very much the same as the FM8 version (played with higher velocity, or vice versa), and both sound almost indistinguishable from the TX802 that way.

The Dexed "Modern" engine resolution definitely sounds off in this case.

After the first part of the demo, "Die Tänzerin/Edo Zanki" Pianosound-example, you can hear that atmo-sound.
I´ve played the same sound with the "FM7", which comes much closer, at the end of the sounddemo.
But, hear for yourself.

DTaenzerin definitely sounds better on FM8. I can't get it equal or better on Dexed.

But when loading it in Dexed using "Mark I" engine resolution, it sounds more like the TX802 version, which also has that slight aliasing effect.

The DX7 can produce far more as the known 80s legend E-pianos, Bells, Plucks, Percussions, Bass,
Brass, Organs or SFX sounds.
If you going deeper into the FM-synthesis, there are obvious new worlds of sound.
For example, everchanging Textures, Atmos, Vocalchoirs, Otherworldly sounds, Exciting Pads & Leads,
Lively Keys and Percussions, realistic Reeds, SFX´s and FX-Drums.
So this synth will be never-outdated.

100% agree. The DX7 type FM synthesis sounds "timeless" to me. This is due to the beauty of the incredible rigor of how sounds are generated, and the resulting "purity".

Obviously, this depends on which preset is used. I find for example that there are many presets where the (tonal) LFO speed and/or depth is too high. Bringing these down will instantly improve them. In many cases, bringing the velocity down, can smoothen things out.

Also, I would say that extra FX are essential to get the most out of it, such as chorus, delay, reverb, etc...

With these tips, there are still a great many gems to be found online

The only way to go one up are the DX1/DX5. But with careful editing, the DX7 types and emus can go a very long way, since the DX1/DX5 are essentially two DX7s with some extra features, quite similar to the DX7II (I'm presently not sure how the sound quality differs, but the DX1/DX5 always sounds incredible and lush; It appears this could be because top components were used, with DX1 sounding even better than DX5).

Examples of DX5 (same as DX1, different box):




And here's a nice example of the TX816


You can do the same with Dexed or FM8, by adding instances of the same sound, slightly detuned, and panned.

My posted banks are only a little example of how my collection sounds.

Nice stuff man, thanks for all the hard work! If only you'd 've had an Atari ST back in the day

Take care  O0

[Kujaschi]

Was ist an diesem Statement/Kompliment denn so amüsant?

Amusant? Gar nichts Dr. DX7 

Mittlerweile habe ich die soundbänke in FM8 reingeladen und funktioniert wunderbar.
MAn hört gleich wie sauber und wie clean die presets sind, und ich habe keine Artefakten oder Volumenwechselungen feststellen können. Ich habe keine Ahnung von den echten DX7 aber diese Presets sind alle ohne FX, hat der DX7 keine Effekten gehabt? Egal aber, am liebsten mag man FX doch selbst einstellen oder? Auch die echte Instrumenten wie Geige und Piano sind gar keine schlechte Emulationen.

Und einige sounds gaben das Gefühl ob man in ein AlienRaumschif rumgelaufen hat und um jede Ecke auf was aussererdisches gestossen ist.

Mir gefallen die Sounds sehr gut, den Moog1, Strange und Hubschrber sind schon Favorieten
Wobei der Hubschrber sich mehr wie ne Zeitmachine anhört.

So, jetzt die 2e bank mal anhören! Nochmals danke!

Der DX7 erblickte ja bereits 1983 das Licht der Welt - da war an Effekten in
Synthesizern noch nicht zu denken...
Ich habe dennoch immer versucht (je nach Sound), etwas Reverb, bzw. Echo
imaginär in die Soundprogrammierung einzubeziehen.
Mit den seinerzeit ausgefeilten Hüllkurven (Time/Level) der DX-Reihe war
es durchaus möglich, Echo- oder Reverb -ähnliche Effekte zu reproduzieren.
Oder leichtes Phasing m.E..... durch viel viel "Learning-by-doing" stösst man dann
auf Dinge, die man sich merkt - es steht ja nicht alles im Handbuch.

"Hubschrauber" - ja mehr ein analoger Versuch. Zu der Zeit hatte ich ja nur
noch meinen Crumar und nichts anderes. Der DX7 war mein erster richtiger
Synth und somit habe ich versucht, alles erdenkliche - auch in Richtung Analoges -
zu programmieren. Manches mit, manches mit weniger Erfolg. Das nicht so
gute Ergebnis fiel aber vom Tisch und in der (doch stark angewachsenen Library
im Laufe der nächsten 3 Jahre) ist davon nichts mehr zu finden.
Der "Hubschrauber"- Sound war dann einer von diesen "LFO-Effect" Sounds,
die auch oft in analogen Synths zu finden sind/waren und ich versucht habe,
nachzu"bauen".

Mit dem DX7 konnte man auch wirklich gute (nicht so nach FM klingende) Pianos
programmieren, die sich schon fast nach Multisamples anhören.
Habe ja jetzt wieder einiges davon angespielt und war selbst überrascht.
Aber wie gesagt, es soll "erstmal" bei diesen beiden Bänken bleiben.

Schön, wenn Dir die Sounds gefallen.
Ich denke auch, im FM7/FM8 kommen sie auch gut und authentisch rüber.... 

[Kujaschi]

Thank you, Mr Sounddigger,
for those many words and positive feedback to this soundbanks.... 

Mmh I was a child of the C-64 at these times and I´ve used it, as I left my
music-band and tried to make music at home.

I had a "Drummer" program (can´t remember the name), and very rudimentary
musicial software too.
So I´ve got a midi-interface from C-Lab and a very simple Sequencer-software.
There were no software for the DX7 (C64) in those times AFAIK, so I had to go this
(for sure) very inconvenient and long-winded way.
Sometimes my right hand hurts so often by this procedure - to wrote down this endless numbers of parameters....
Too look onto this little grey display and to concentrate, not to write down some
false numbers.... 

To DEXED:
I have the 0.91 version and couldn´t find a MK I option?, but some members of
KVR wrote in that thread, there are some differences in sound too.
And you heard that for yourself by the sound "DTaenzerin". Yah, it may come
close, but not too close.

I think, the DEXED can reproduce all that known DX7 sounds like those factory
sounds, but some special things (like the Atmo5) sound, you have to change
some parameters. But I wouldn´t go too deep into the DEXED programming
again - I only want to post those old DX7 patchbanks, just they sound as they are.
IMO the FM7/FM8 is THE successor and most sounds DEXED (with the newest
version) can be reproduced to 90%. So this is ok......
And btw it´s not forbidden to modify this patches or to get some new sounds
out of it. So I think, these sounds can be a good basis for something new -
or somebody use them as they are.
These patches sounds completely different in HEXTER - for example.....

And this is so true, what you´ve said: DX7 patches sounds very timeless.
For me this is nostalgia too - As I´ve played through my collection, old
memories and pictures of the past passed by.....

You are playing the TX802 and the TX816 (DX7 x eight times).....
ok so you need an editor, but you have That sound original nowadays....
I´ve never created any patches in the FM7 until nowadays. Only used the
factory banks or my own collection.
This is because, I was unable to appreciate the FM7 for programming
- it was/is not the same. Funny, the FM7 is so easy to program,
but I would rather buy a DX7 again for sound-patching.

Yes, there are zillion of soundbanks for the DX-series out there. I´ve tried
the most (that comes with DEXED (the BlackWinny´s), and some years
before (loaded into my FM7). But in most times, I was dissapointed.
These are mostly reproductions of the factory banks, so many doubled
and threefold sounds and many patches seems likely made as with a
"random" function.
So there are only a few good designers, who made some interesting banks
and who has gone deeper into that synthesis.....

The DX1 and DX5 was big and truly masters of the DX-series.
So the DX5 has two FM-engines under the hood and the DX1 looks like
the master of the universe - that really huge chassis and sound - but
very expensive too.

And this is the point:
The nostalgia with those sounds too - but I can remember
the many hours of programming/playing and being lost in
the synthesis - It´s the same, some musicians are telling about the
fundamental difference between soft- and hardware.....
Just the smell of the DX7 - after some time, a special smell was in the air.
Something software lacks, cos it can´t. Not only the lack of sliders or
knobs - the haptic feeling (ok, the DX7 has only this one Data-Entry-slider),
but something for your nose, you´ll never forget.
But this don´t belong here.... just a private memory.

So, I don´t know, if a DX7 sound may sounds different in a DX5/DX1.
Or in the TX816? It´s the same engine....
Ok, some differences someone may hear in my sounddemo, if he
compares that with the patches, loaded in his instrument....

But I think, everyone should take these patches for his own needs and
make music....  :drum

[Sounddigger]

To DEXED:
I have the 0.91 version and couldn´t find a MK I option?, ...

Hmmm... maybe you should try your other pair of glasses? 

The "engine resolution" options were introduced with v 0.8.0. The latest version 0.9.2b1 lost 3 of the buttons in the lower left corner, but the "PRM" button is still there, with the  "engine resolution" menu. Try playing around with it. It can really make a difference of day and night.

The other important thing is to check how things sound with lower velocity. Dexed sounds generally closer than FM8, but for some sounds it still needs a bit less velocity (just substract 5% to 15 %).

The only problem I have with the update is that FXP files saved with 0.8.0. (with tweaks and all) won't load in version 0.9.2b1. To transfer the selection I made to the new version, I have to use the SysEx file format (which works fine when exported from v 0.8.0). Hopefully this can somehow be improved, so it will be easier to update versions.

On the other hand, v 0.9.2b1 introduces a "master tune", which means it's now possible to properly stack the same preset with some detune, as many times your DAW can handle, and do those DX1/5/802/816 flavors  moke1

... but some members of
KVR wrote in that thread, there are some differences in sound too.
And you heard that for yourself by the sound "DTaenzerin". Yah, it may come
close, but not too close.

Again, with the right settings - to me - Dexed sounds more like the TX802. But for this particular preset FM8 sounds better than both Dexed and hardware. This is encouraging of course, as it means there are still good and unique results to be had with it and things to explore. 

I think, the DEXED can reproduce all that known DX7 sounds like those factory
sounds, but some special things (like the Atmo5) sound, you have to change
some parameters.

Really, try the above tips. You might (still) be amazed.

These patches sounds completely different in HEXTER - for example.....

There's no comparison with Dexed and FM8, really. It was a good effort when it came out, but Hexter is now definitely obsolete.

And this is so true, what you´ve said: DX7 patches sounds very timeless.
For me this is nostalgia too - As I´ve played through my collection, old
memories and pictures of the past passed by.....

...

Yes, there are zillion of soundbanks for the DX-series out there. I´ve tried
the most (that comes with DEXED (the BlackWinny´s), and some years
before (loaded into my FM7). But in most times, I was dissapointed.
These are mostly reproductions of the factory banks, so many doubled
and threefold sounds and many patches seems likely made as with a
"random" function.
So there are only a few good designers, who made some interesting banks
and who has gone deeper into that synthesis.....

Well, it takes some time, but when you know what you're looking for and how to throw out uninteresting "doubles", and if you have the right method for organizing things, there's some great stuff to be found.

I've actually not explored the banks that have been included with Dexed very much. I've gone straight to what I've been able to find online. I remember liking Tim Conrardy's stuff quite a lot. But there's much more... I've counted more than 7800 banks on my HD, which I didn't check all of course (there are surely doubles) tars

Studio One has this very useful option to save presets in a Studio One format, which can make it really easy to assemble your own library. Once that's done, it's a breeze to get the sound you're looking for (if it's there).

As things are now, I find the way sounds are organized with Dexed awkward. You can't replace a preset within a bank, and it doesn't work with FXP, so that leaves things stuck and difficult to handle. Hope this will be improved. Library wise, with FM8 you can organize sounds in a number of ways. Great.

The DX1 and DX5 was big and truly masters of the DX-series.
So the DX5 has two FM-engines under the hood and the DX1 looks like
the master of the universe - that really huge chassis and sound - but
very expensive too.

And this is the point:
The nostalgia with those sounds too - but I can remember
the many hours of programming/playing and being lost in
the synthesis - It´s the same, some musicians are telling about the
fundamental difference between soft- and hardware.....
Just the smell of the DX7 - after some time, a special smell was in the air.
Something software lacks, cos it can´t. Not only the lack of sliders or
knobs - the haptic feeling (ok, the DX7 has only this one Data-Entry-slider),
but something for your nose, you´ll never forget.
But this don´t belong here.... just a private memory.

So, I don´t know, if a DX7 sound may sounds different in a DX5/DX1.
Or in the TX816? It´s the same engine....

They all sound slightly different 

For sure, with PC it's possible to make the best out of the digital sound engine. So with the right tweaks and processing, results can truly be stunning  :top2

Take care

[Kujaschi]

Hello Mr Sounddigger,

Ha, I might have been blind or I didn´t recognised it, as I´ve been poking around
the "DEXED"-thread - I´ve tried the MKI-mode on DEXED now.
Yes, some patches come closer now, but it doesn´t sounds the same.
For example, this "Indian-yelling (so called by me)" effect on this "Atmo5" patch
is there, but very quiet.
You´re right, it needs some fiddling with the velocity.

But some sounds - for best example - "SynthX" are really different.
On this patch it lacks this special "digital shine" on C3 downwards.
You can´t hear anything on the DEXED, but when playing this patch
on FM7 or FM8, you can hear that effect strong.
But ok, as you´ve said, DEXED might be a emulation more on the TX802,
than DX7, but I don´t know of the differences between the DX synthesizers
themselves in their special engines.

I´ve read in the KVR-DEXED-thread, there are some big differences in the
"Breakpoint-section" - this may the cause of some varieties in sound too.

Tim Conrady was a good designer, but IMO also the "Aminet", "SteveSims",
"Narfman" or "BoTomlyn" banks are worth trying out....

Yah, more instances with detuning and the sound is getting huge and
surely comes closer to that legendary instruments.

I have compared some other banks of my collection with DEXED
(in the MKI-mode) now.
Ahh - on some patches it lacks furthermore some slightly effects too -
but those makes the character of these sounds sometimes.....
but not even all - only some patches
The most patches sounds much closer than before - so the MKI-mode makes it....

I think, DEXED is a good replacement for the DX7 (for those who doesn´t own the NI-synths), otherwise the FM7 or FM8 (my statement - i stick to it)
might be the successor.

The DX7 sounds have this special character - nowadays too....

So I´ve played a "Grand Piano" sound of mine, for example (with some Reverb)
and yeah, it sounds awesome - as I´ve said - that could be a (but not too expensive)
multisample....

Think, it would be worth for everyone to look into DEXED for programming.
DEXED has a "open" interface and that makes it easier for patching....

[Sounddigger]

Hello Mr Sounddigger,

Ha, I might have been blind or I didn´t recognised it, as I´ve been poking around
the "DEXED"-thread - I´ve tried the MKI-mode on DEXED now.
Yes, some patches come closer now, but it doesn´t sounds the same.

There is also the "OPL" mode. I have almost no idea what these different mode emulate precisely, but there is always one of them that will get a preset to sound cool. So I suggest you try them and hear for yourself...

For example, this "Indian-yelling (so called by me)" effect on this "Atmo5" patch
is there, but very quiet.

OK, I've now found time to check out a few more things.

Here's what I'm finding. To get my TX802 to sound more or less the same as the FM8 version I have to lower velocity by -16%. Then the "indian yelling" (the high "trrrr" sound) is slightly less loud then on the FM8 version, and then its pitch (of the "yelling/trrrr") is slightly different (but gives overall the most similar impression).

When played on Dexed in "Mark I" mode, with lower velocity by -16%, "Atmo5" sounds slightly different than the TX802 version, but overall very similar. In this way, the "indian yelling" is actually quite loud, louder then on the TX802, and about as loud as the FM8 version.

I tested this with a recorded MIDI note, played in exactly the same way for all three options.

When I play "Atmo5" as a pad sound, I tend to prefer the Dexed version.

Make of it what you want... 

You´re right, it needs some fiddling with the velocity.

As a recap: in fact, FM8 seems to play the original DX7 SysEx sounds with about 15% lower velocity. This will actually improve many sounds, as for some reason in my experience many of them are actually a bit over-sensitive when played on DX7/TX802/816. Generally, Dexed emulates this very close, but there are cases where lowering the velocity even more will give nicer results.

But some sounds - for best example - "SynthX" are really different.
On this patch it lacks this special "digital shine" on C3 downwards.
You can´t hear anything on the DEXED, but when playing this patch
on FM7 or FM8, you can hear that effect strong.

OK, I've now also found time to check this preset, and again got quite different results.

I find the FM8 rendition overly "bright" ("sizzling" in an unpleasant way, actually), especially compared to how it sounds on the TX802, no matter what I fiddle with velocity. The TX802 version sounds very tame in comparison.

From my experience, presets played on the TX802 should not be different to that degree, compared to as played on a DX7 or TX816. But maybe this is some odd exception.

When I play "SynthX" on Dexed in "Mark I" mode, it sounds a bit brighter than when played on the TX802. And it sounds just fine below C3. I don't understand how you get no sound at all :o

The FM8 rendition does sound a bit heavier below C3 than the Dexed rendition, but when played on the TX802 the notes below C3 are even less loud than when played on Dexed (and therefore a lot less loud than on FM8).

In this case, to my taste, the Dexed version would be the most usable of them all, although the FM8 version could in some cases be an interesting option.

I don't really understand why FM8 would sound so different from the TX802 version. Will have to check a few things related to resolution and such.

There should be no difference between FM8 and FM7, right?

In any case, all that matters is what option will fit best for the track(s) you're working on. Each one of them sounds great when used for the right occasion. Use the differences to your advantage.

Forgive me for not actually providing sound samples of all these differences. After all, in the end, what matters is what works for you

But ok, as you´ve said, DEXED might be a emulation more on the TX802,
than DX7, but I don´t know of the differences between the DX synthesizers
themselves in their special engines.

Whatever you end up using, I would suggest you get your hands on a DX7 for a few days, and check out the things we've detailed here, and more, and see how that works out. Maybe your memory is playing tricks on you. The differences with how a TX802 sounds might (and should) not be as great as what you seem to believe. I do seem to recall that in some cases the DX7 can sound a little bit brighter than the TX802 and TX816. But overall the difference should not be very great.

Then again, maybe I got it all wrong. The only thing I can be 100% certain about at this time and after all these years, is how things sound on the TX802.

I´ve read in the KVR-DEXED-thread, there are some big differences in the
"Breakpoint-section" - this may the cause of some varieties in sound too.

Maybe that could be it. I don't know. It will have to be checked.

Tim Conrady was a good designer, but IMO also the "Aminet", "SteveSims",
"Narfman" or "BoTomlyn" banks are worth trying out....

Thanks for pointing these out, I will check them out. It will save time, although these are still quite a lot of sounds to go through...  s

I have compared some other banks of my collection with DEXED
(in the MKI-mode) now.

Be sure to also check OPL and Modern modes. You never really know in advance which will be best.

If you want to check some more, here is a good example of how some sounds really don't work in FM8.

Find the attachment called "Glassman". It's a full bank exported from Dexed 0.8.0. Find the preset called ... "glassman". Load it in Dexed and check if it's in mode "Mark I". Now load it in FM8/FM7 and play some notes around C2. Compare what you get.

The difference should be obvious. FM8 renders some of the operators out of tune (or something else is going on) which makes the sound completely fall apart.

The Dexed version is indistinguishable from the TX802 rendition.

Think, it would be worth for everyone to look into DEXED for programming.
DEXED has a "open" interface and that makes it easier for patching....

Isn't the GUI nice? For the first time I found it fairly doable to tweak stuff and get the results I wanted with almost no frustration. Awesome. But I still find it quite tough to set up a sound from scratch. Maybe one day I'll get it down, who knows...  8)

Schuss!

[Kujaschi]

Hello Sounddigger,

yah you´re right in some things....

But do you know, if the "DX-engine" is the same as in FM7?

I don´t own FM8 - I´m using FM7 for years, cos I´ve never updated.
The FM7 always fits my needs - for my own DX-sounds and the
good factorypatches of the FM7 itself....

So, if there are differences between a TX802/816 and a DX7, there
must be differences in the software too.
I don´t know....

For me, the "Atmo5" sounds very similar in FM7 as in the Dexed....
in Dexed to 80% - this "Yelling" is too quiet....
I have a very old song, I´ve used that sound and can compare to this.
But ok, we wont be too fussy...

For the "SynthX" - you may be right....
This patch sounds different in the DX7 as in the FM7 and far away
from that in Dexed....
Here´s a little example:

SynthX - Dexed:
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://2lazy.music-society.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SynthX_Dexed.mp3[/mp3]

SynthX - FM7:
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://2lazy.music-society.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SynthX_FM7.mp3[/mp3]

I´ve tried to fiddle in Dexed, to get the same result, but had to surrender....
Equal if "velocity", "Feedback" and some other parameters, i can´t get the
result like in FM7 or just the DX7....

"SynthX" in the DX7 sounds more silky, more like....mmmh Do you remember
that soundtrack from the movie "Das Boot", by Klaus Doldinger?
At the end of the "melody" there is that huge, majestic synthsound....
"SynthX" sounds similar, but a little more brighter - in the DX7...
and without this "Feedback" sizzle noise....but with more digital clearness.
But ok, we wont be holier than the pope....

The "OPL"-mode in Dexed - there was some Yamaha soundcards
with FM - this seems to be the emulation....

Cos of this thread and re-working with my collection, I´m thinking
to buy a DX7 again....
The DX seems to be cheap on Ebay these times and why not....
BTW it has a very good keyboard with nice aftertouch/dynamic and
it seems, i can patch these kind of sounds, more on the original
as in my FM7 or Dexed - thats funny, crazy....
It´s 25 years ago and so much happened....
i´m curious which kind of sounds, I will explore out of the DX7 nowadays....

[Sounddigger]

Hello Sounddigger,

[align=center]yah you´re right in some things....

But do you know, if the "DX-engine" is the same as in FM7?

I don´t own FM8 - I´m using FM7 for years, cos I´ve never updated.
The FM7 always fits my needs - for my own DX-sounds and the
good factorypatches of the FM7 itself....

If I understood correctly, soundwise FM8 should render original DX presets the same as FM7.

So, if there are differences between a TX802/816 and a DX7, there
must be differences in the software too.
I don´t know....

For me, the "Atmo5" sounds very similar in FM7 as in the Dexed....
in Dexed to 80% - this "Yelling" is too quiet....
I have a very old song, I´ve used that sound and can compare to this.
But ok, we wont be too fussy...

For the "SynthX" - you may be right....
This patch sounds different in the DX7 as in the FM7 and far away
from that in Dexed....
Here´s a little example:

SynthX - Dexed:
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://2lazy.music-society.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SynthX_Dexed.mp3[/mp3]

SynthX - FM7:
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://2lazy.music-society.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SynthX_FM7.mp3[/mp3]

I´ve tried to fiddle in Dexed, to get the same result, but had to surrender....
Equal if "velocity", "Feedback" and some other parameters, i can´t get the
result like in FM7 or just the DX7....

Hey Kujashi, you know what? We got fooled by Dexed's updates!  : i bi bled

While double checking your audio examples in various ways, I found out that there's a big difference in the way Dexed v 0.8.0 "Mark I" mode sounds compared to v 0.9.2b1 "Mark I" mode.

Since I created a handy library for v 0.8.0 that I have not yet had the time to transport to the update's formats, this is the version I was checking sounds with, most of the time.

The SynthX preset played with v 0.8.0 Mark I sounds much brighter than with v 0.9.2b1 Mark I !!

And SynthX played with v 0.9.2b1 Mark I sounds much more like my TX802 than when played with v 0.8.0, albeit a little less bright (not great). So the developer actually did a fairly good job. It's just a bit confusing...

Additionally, it sounds to me that you ended up using v 0.9.x in "Modern" mode, not "Mark I". So that makes it even more off... duh.  :o

This also explains the different findings with the Atmo5 preset.  v 0.9.x Mark I sounds spot on like my TX802.

"SynthX" in the DX7 sounds more silky, ...

I don't exactly know what was modeled with  v 0.8.0 Mark I, but SynthX played with that version actually has a bit of the "silky" element you're describing.

... more like....mmmh Do you remember
that soundtrack from the movie "Das Boot", by Klaus Doldinger?

At the end of the "melody" there is that huge, majestic synthsound....
"SynthX" sounds similar, but a little more brighter - in the DX7...
and without this "Feedback" sizzle noise....but with more digital clearness.
But ok, we wont be holier than the pope....

Looks to me you're talking about the following version, with that sound at 1:47:



SynthX played with  v 0.8.0 Mark I sounds quite close to that.

For a possible alternative that sounds close to it in v 0.9.x, check the attached file. Find the preset called "Powerclav". It sounds very close to my TX802 (but admittedly not 100%), and a bit better than the FM8 rendition. It's not as silky as SynthX played with  v 0.8.0 Mark I, but you might be able to tweak it into what you want.

Cos of this thread and re-working with my collection, I´m thinking
to buy a DX7 again....
The DX seems to be cheap on Ebay these times and why not....

Seems like a good idea. I suspect a DX7 in good condition might become a valuable collectors item one day, seeing how it was the first popular FM synth. So it should be a sound investment (notice the pun! )

Saw an interesting offer on eBay a few hours ago, at 400 €. It's gone now... So that tells you something.

BTW it has a very good keyboard with nice aftertouch/dynamic ...

Yup, some people really like it. Personally, I prefer a weighted keyboard for most of what I play. But there's a place for everything.

... and it seems, i can patch these kind of sounds, more on the original
as in my FM7 or Dexed - thats funny, crazy....
It´s 25 years ago and so much happened....
i´m curious which kind of sounds, I will explore out of the DX7 nowadays....

I wasn't able to find a video with some comparisons between the DX7 and other versions, like DX7II, TX802 or TX816. Would've been interesting to clarify a few things if there were some.

Going through a few videos of DX/TX demos, personally I'd say the TX802 often sounds better than DX7. And I know that the TX816 sounds fatter than TX802 (not always the best option, though - but great for bass and such).

DX7II is 2 x 16 voice DX7. TX802 is 8 x 2 voice DX7. TX816 is 8 x 16 voice DX7, and slightly fatter (better components?).

A comment at http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/tx802.php claims there are differences in the output (not in the oscillators):

"The reson for the differet sound betwen the TX-802 and the TX-7/DX7 are that the first generations (TX7/DX7) had 10 bit output. The DX7 II and the TX802 have 12 or 16 bit (cant remember) outputs"

Service manuals clearly show mk1 family is 14-bit (12-bit DAC + 2 of analogue companding) vs mkII family with 15-bit DAC. People throw around DAC numbers, most wrong. So are a lot of claims about sound quality.

Here are some interesting vids showcasing the sounds of these:

Sort of a comparison between DX7, DX7II, but not the same preset!


DX7 factory presets


Some DX7II sounds


Some TX802 sounds (very much like Dexed Mark I)


Nice demo with only TX802


And a nice one with TX816 (no FX)


Viel spass 

[Kujaschi]

Hello Mr Sounddigger,

mmh - at first, the "SynthX"-example sound by the "DEXED",
was played in the MKI-mode.....
So, I´m using the 0.8 version, not the actually update.....
That seems to be the reason for some "sound-differences".....
and this is the reason too, I´m looking for a DX7 on ebay -
again after so many years....
for sure, it´s a little bit of nostalgia and the truth,
it´s software-successors can indeed reproduce most of that DX7 sound,
but not at 100%.

And do you remember the DX7 effect patch "Water Garden"?
So hit any keys and hold this sound with the use of a sustain-pedal.....
I can remember this sweet and interesting collage of digital "waterdrops"
and NONE of the software successors can reproduce this patch in the same way.

And just another thing:
I have an "accident" patch, somewhere in my collection - just "ghostnoises".
So, no "real" sound, but cos of the "bad" converters in the DX,
it produces some noise and so in a special adjustment,
the FM OP´s produces some crazy frequencies, that whooshes up and down,
glimmering, shimmering.
You only have to raise up the output volume to maximum, to hear that.
It was crazy - so if I had sampled the output, put a delay after that sound
and you´ve got an amazing, selftextured "sci-fi" sound.
Unfortunately -when I load this "patch" into the FM7 or Dexed, you will hear:
Nothing!
That´s a pure DX phenomenon..... just another reason for the original....

Ok, the engine in the 6-operator machines must be the same (DX7, TX802, TX816
and so on), but I´ve read somewhere about little differences.
So it´s the ouput - ok.

It seems, some sounds have a better touch of the original, played with the
FM7/FM8 and some other sounds good, played by the Dexed (depend on the
used version and MKI or Modern-mode).
It seems impossible to test all the sounds in my collection with
these software synths - cos it lacks the presence of the original.
I can´t compare with the real thing.

So the best for me, because of my own interest in these sounds again
and for future-programming, is to buy the synth once more.
Yes, I´ve seen some DX7 for ~250 Euro and some for ~500 Euro.
But only kept my eyes on Ebay-germany. I have to wait, to look and grab the moment.

Thanks for the bank - there are some good gems in it.
I have to fiddle a bit on this patch, but I`ll do my very best.

All in all - this thread and positive reactions showed me:
FM isn´t dead and there is far more interest, as I´ve ever thought.
I knows, my collection is there, but didn´t touch any of these sounds for years.
Now, they came back to light ....

Somewhere on KVR, there is a new thread about a "Arturia DX7", ok
Just a member wrote, it isn´t worth it, cos there aren´t too much good DX7
sounds out there.
This isn´t true: It´s just a own universe - you only have to explore....
Millions of new sounds are waiting - never heard before....
But most people in the past or nowadays never touched this synthesis/synth
right or got deeper - like it was alien technology - but it isn´t.. 
It´s an amazing world of sound.... 

Ciao  :top2

[Sounddigger]

Hello Mr Sounddigger,

mmh - at first, the "SynthX"-example sound by the "DEXED",
was played in the MKI-mode.....
So, I´m using the 0.8 version, not the actually update.....

It has all got a bit confusing. But here, SynthX  played with v 0.8.0 in "Mark I" mode sounds better than what you posted. You might want to check, or not... Anyway...

Maybe a useful tip: normally Dexed can't have different versions installed at the same time. But using jBridge you can install different versions for comparison or other uses.

That seems to be the reason for some "sound-differences".....
and this is the reason too, I´m looking for a DX7 on ebay -
again after so many years....
for sure, it´s a little bit of nostalgia and the truth,
it´s software-successors can indeed reproduce most of that DX7 sound,
but not at 100%.

I strongly believe in the value of "classics". It be synth classics or classic classics

Today, there are a number of emulations of classic synths (through various methods), that really have opened up incredible possibilities, undreamed of 20 years ago. But sometimes, only the real thing will do. Sometimes, it can be enough to just have good samples, and in rare cases, you have to get the original machine.

Personally, I'm delighted by the possibilities offered by Dexed and FM8. Throughout my life I've had to find workarounds to realize certain sounds, due to not having certain synths or certain musicians available. These VSTs can hardly be called "workarounds", since they are so incredibly close to the real thing. :anbet It's all just about putting them to good use, really.

And do you remember the DX7 effect patch "Water Garden"?
So hit any keys and hold this sound with the use of a sustain-pedal.....
I can remember this sweet and interesting collage of digital "waterdrops"
and NONE of the software successors can reproduce this patch in the same way.

Sounds interesting. I have a very nice sound called "Water GDN", which seems derived from what you describe, but it's a very short bright organ type sound, great for sequences (the way it has always sounded on TX802).

Could you post that preset? I'd love to hear it

And just another thing:
I have an "accident" patch, somewhere in my collection - just "ghostnoises".
So, no "real" sound, but cos of the "bad" converters in the DX,
it produces some noise and so in a special adjustment,
the FM OP´s produces some crazy frequencies, that whooshes up and down,
glimmering, shimmering.
You only have to raise up the output volume to maximum, to hear that.
It was crazy - so if I had sampled the output, put a delay after that sound
and you´ve got an amazing, selftextured "sci-fi" sound.
Unfortunately -when I load this "patch" into the FM7 or Dexed, you will hear:
Nothing!
That´s a pure DX phenomenon..... just another reason for the original....

If it's "unmissable", then you should definitely get it! (nice signature quote, btw )

It seems, some sounds have a better touch of the original, played with the
FM7/FM8 and some other sounds good, played by the Dexed (depend on the
used version and MKI or Modern-mode).

I can agree with that 8)

All in all - this thread and positive reactions showed me:
FM isn´t dead and there is far more interest, as I´ve ever thought.
I knows, my collection is there, but didn´t touch any of these sounds for years.
Now, they came back to light ....

Somewhere on KVR, there is a new thread about a "Arturia DX7", ok
Just a member wrote, it isn´t worth it, cos there aren´t too much good DX7
sounds out there.
This isn´t true: It´s just a own universe - you only have to explore....
Millions of new sounds are waiting - never heard before....
But most people in the past or nowadays never touched this synthesis/synth
right or got deeper - like it was alien technology - but it isn´t.. 
It´s an amazing world of sound.... 

Those people who claim there are "no sounds" for DX7 type synths, are just not thinking clearly and ... lazy, since there are so many banks with zillions of sounds, waiting to be discovered and (ab)used, and so many to be invented, as you rightly point out.

As far as I remember FM synthesis has always got a bad rap from many analog synthesis afficionados (of which I'm one, of course). But it's nonsens. I have some sounds in my DX7 library that sound more "analog" than analog: warm, fat, etc... Sure, they can also sound "sterile", "stark", or "eerie", but that can precisely be what makes them work.

And how much analogs can really do good Rhodes-type sounds, that really offer a good alternative to a real Rhodes (or samples of it)?

Also, I think an extra factor is the incredible avalanche of possibilities we have today. A result of this is that developers and sound programmers try to be too many things, to too many people.

Beginning producers/musicians are often seduced (or "dazzled") with VSTs that offer a fully produced sound, with chorus, delay and often even compression, eq, etc...

In many cases it's overkill, and often makes up for sounds that are not that interesting at the basis. Add to this the fact that 3rd party comps, eqs and other FX often sound better...

In contrast, DX7 sounds just offer the raw FM sounds. It's raw beauty, but you have to work on them to really bring them to life. Once you do, the rewards can be great!

Also, nobody said that you have to use the DX7 sounds for everything. It's just that you CAN, if you'd like to! s

Things to think about in this "black friday" and weinachten period  :dudideldei

Grussen!  :band

[Kujaschi]

Hello Sounddigger & folks,

yah, just some little words, cos my home-music-pc is broken....

The system wont boot anymore and the problem seems to be the
power supply....
I have all spare parts like the mainboard etc. laying around, but not
the power supply...so i ordered, but have to wait....

The "Water Garden" sound was on the two cartridges, which was
delivered with the DX7 (or TX)....
It was one of the last sounds of the "Effects"-library.... and sounds sweetly,
when used with the sustain-pedal....just hit some keys and wait....

If you don´t have the original cartridges - the original factory banks are
available with "DEXED"´s  Black Winny collection or somewhere on the net.

But just as my PC will be "healed" - I have no access to my harddisk yet -
i can post a "sample" of this sound - I´ve sampled a "minute" of this patch,
before I´ve sold my DX7.
I can´t post the "Ghostsound" too - but you wont hear it on every "software"-
emulation and on the TX`? The sound results of the bad converters inside
the DX - so some patches sounds noisier or dirtier with the MK I versions....

One reason to look for the original hardware again.....

So some answers, when I´m musically "online" again.... :-)

and happy christmas time, too    :dudideldei

[Zxayant]

Leider habe ich den FM7 nicht mehr, obwohl ich den besser fand als die 8er

I totally agree with that. I love the FM7! What would you say made it better?

[brijawi]

@Kujaschi: Thank you for the sounds and your history and perspective on the DX7.